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A Few Notes on the New Anaconda
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    A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    I've had to reinstall F18 (don't ask), which gave me another look at the new Anaconda. I took a few notes along the way, so here are some thoughts, intended to be constructive:

    1. I did a net install. After selecting the install Fedora option, I'm shown a gray screen with blinking cursor, then a black screen with a terminal-sized area of white in the upper left that is covered by rows of dots. Overlaying that is a message that "/etc/cmdline" could not be executed. That's followed by a long series of boot messages cascading down the screen until the Fedora logo appears and Anaconda launches. I've seen this every time I've used the new Anaconda. Should I be seeing something prettier?

    2. At the "Installation Summary": Users can click the icons to change the defaults that Anaconda has selected. But, I'm not convinced the display conveys that. I.e., there is no indication a user can click "Software Selection" and change the default desktop or add additional software groups. The use of the yellow triangle with an exclamation point may contribute to that in that it can be interpreted more as an error indicator and less as an invitation to acquire necessary user input.

    3. "Installation Destination": Disks are identified by manufacturer name and model number. Identification via the "dev/sda" formal appears on mouseover. It would be more useful to display that info beneath the manufacturer name, rather than requiring the mouseover. There is no indication that you need to click the disk icons for use in partitioning.

    4. "Manual Partitioning": I repurposed and reformatted several existing partitions on three drives, keeping the existing mount points, skipping the "Reclaim Space" activity. This is easy: Click on a partition under the "Unknown Linux" heading, enter the mount point in the right panel, check reformat, and apply changes. The new partition appears under "New Fedora 18 Installation" and vanishes from "Unknown Linux". However, when I selected a partition under "Unknown Linux", that did not trigger any obvious visual change on the right panel to indicate that the next step was for me to enter information there. Perhaps a bright and bold border around the mount point field could appear then? And, the help icon needs a label that says "Help". It really isn't obvious now what it's for.

    5. No prompt to remove DVD after clicking reboot. Left DVD in. Got initial install display, but waited the full minute to see if it would go into Firstboot. It did not, going into Anaconda instead.

    I recall some years ago when I first used a Linux installer. I knew little or nothing about partitioning, but I still wanted to create my own layout, rather than accept whatever the installer created. The installer made the rational assumption that anyone choosing manual partitioning knew what he was doing. So, it presented what was essentially a simple graphical overlay to fdisk (as did the old Anaconda). And, I was flummoxed because I had no real notion of what partitioning is all about. The upside came later, when I was familiar enough with that traditional approach so I could whip through the installer in no time.

    This initial rev of the new Anaconda has abandoned the traditional "graphical overlay of fdisk" approach to manual partitioning and introduced an approach that will be unfamiliar to everyone, neophyte or the experienced. Hence, the frustration of many who find themselves trying to shoehorn the traditional approach into the new Anaconda. I'm not in a position to say if the new approach works for neophytes. (I do think people who write installers should assume that users have at least some knowledge of partitioning when they opt for manual partitioning. There's is only so much magic that software can do.)

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    2. At the "Installation Summary": Users can click the icons to change the defaults that Anaconda has selected. But, I'm not convinced the display conveys that. I.e., there is no indication a user can click "Software Selection" and change the default desktop or add additional software groups. The use of the yellow triangle with an exclamation point may contribute to that in that it can be interpreted more as an error indicator and less as an invitation to acquire necessary user input.

    5. No prompt to remove DVD after clicking reboot. Left DVD in. Got initial install display, but waited the full minute to see if it would go into Firstboot. It did not, going into Anaconda instead.
    I perceive myself as having average hardware: Toshiba C655 with i3 core and 4 gigs of RAM.

    With your 2 note, I had to wait to let the Net Install make adjustments to my selections and show what I had selected - it would take a few seconds to show, and I guess, let Anaconda adjust itself to the selected install choices. It was definitely slower than the old Anaconda, showing choices I had selected.

    On 5 note, I have not seen this on my hardware. When prompted to reboot after install, it takes me to an User Account set up screen - after setting up the User, I log in and eject the install media.

    I have played around with DVD and Net Install, 6 installs, all were consistent - and a learning experience of wrapping my mind around the hub and spoke install approach
    On quest for blue smoke and red rings...
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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Quote Originally Posted by BBQdave
    With your 2 note, I had to wait to let the Net Install make adjustments to my selections and show what I had selected - it would take a few seconds to show, and I guess, let Anaconda adjust itself to the selected install choices. It was definitely slower than the old Anaconda, showing choices I had selected.

    On 5 note, I have not seen this on my hardware. When prompted to reboot after install, it takes me to an User Account set up screen - after setting up the User, I log in and eject the install media.
    I've been assuming that net installs don't pull anything down until they actually need to. Dunno if that's correct, but that's what I've been thinking accounts for some of the little lags I've seen.

    I think there was a recent discussion here about the prompt to reboot. One suggestion was that the installer would ignore the presence of a CD/DVD in the tray and jump to the user account setup, i.e., Firstboot. Alas, not here, though. I'd like to see the reboot prompt include a reminder to remove the CD/DVD.

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    I've had to reinstall F18 (don't ask), which gave me another look at the new Anaconda. I took a few notes along the way, so here are some thoughts, intended to be constructive:
    Thanks for the thoughtful notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    1. I did a net install. After selecting the install Fedora option, I'm shown a gray screen with blinking cursor, then a black screen with a terminal-sized area of white in the upper left that is covered by rows of dots. Overlaying that is a message that "/etc/cmdline" could not be executed. That's followed by a long series of boot messages cascading down the screen until the Fedora logo appears and Anaconda launches. I've seen this every time I've used the new Anaconda. Should I be seeing something prettier?
    Depends what you mean by 'should', I guess. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it a bug that you don't? Not really - it's not like there's something prettier to show but there's a bug preventing it from working, we just haven't written any kind of code to show anything prettier. I don't think this is new with newUI - if you go check an F17 image, I'm pretty sure it's the same. We probably should be able to hook up plymouth to show something pretty here and hide the ugly messages, but we've just not gotten around to it yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    2. At the "Installation Summary": Users can click the icons to change the defaults that Anaconda has selected. But, I'm not convinced the display conveys that. I.e., there is no indication a user can click "Software Selection" and change the default desktop or add additional software groups. The use of the yellow triangle with an exclamation point may contribute to that in that it can be interpreted more as an error indicator and less as an invitation to acquire necessary user input.
    Already being worked on - how does http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Proje...tonspokes1.png look to you? How about http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Proje...tonspokes2.png ? I think our consensus was in favour of buttonspokes2. edit: gah, looks like those links are down - but basically, they turn the spokes into big buttons. buttonspokes2 made the effect somewhat more subtle than buttonspokes1. Anyway - we're on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    3. "Installation Destination": Disks are identified by manufacturer name and model number. Identification via the "dev/sda" formal appears on mouseover. It would be more useful to display that info beneath the manufacturer name, rather than requiring the mouseover. There is no indication that you need to click the disk icons for use in partitioning.
    So there's two points there: one, /dev node name just isn't a very reliable way of referring to disks (it can change between distros, between kernels, or even between boots of the same kernel if you have a particularly crappy firmware, or you plugged in a USB stick, or changed your disk order in the firmware config). Two, this screen is being shown to all users (not just expert ones) and a lot of people are just not going to have any idea what that means. I think we were talking about making other identifying information more prominent in a case where you have multiple similar or identical disks, though. "There is no indication that you need to click the disk icons for use in partitioning." - already being worked on, we are adding a line of text to this page which reads "Select the device(s) you'd lke to install to. They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's "Begin Installation" button."

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    4. "Manual Partitioning": I repurposed and reformatted several existing partitions on three drives, keeping the existing mount points, skipping the "Reclaim Space" activity. This is easy: Click on a partition under the "Unknown Linux" heading, enter the mount point in the right panel, check reformat, and apply changes. The new partition appears under "New Fedora 18 Installation" and vanishes from "Unknown Linux". However, when I selected a partition under "Unknown Linux", that did not trigger any obvious visual change on the right panel to indicate that the next step was for me to enter information there. Perhaps a bright and bold border around the mount point field could appear then? And, the help icon needs a label that says "Help". It really isn't obvious now what it's for.
    Well, the thing is, setting a mount point isn't the only thing you might want to do after selecting an existing partition. You might instead be selecting it just to delete it - in which case your next port of call would be the - button at the bottom of the left hand pane, not the right hand pane.

    But! The text at the top left of the screen when you first enter custom partitioning has been tweaked. It now looks like http://www.happyassassin.net/extras/bulletpoints.png . There's some visual issues there, but we'll probably be able to tweak those out - but at least now the text provides instructions on assigning mount points to existing partitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    5. No prompt to remove DVD after clicking reboot. Left DVD in. Got initial install display, but waited the full minute to see if it would go into Firstboot. It did not, going into Anaconda instead.
    I think back in the day it used to be ejected automatically. I wonder what happened there. I'll have a quick look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by joncr
    I recall some years ago when I first used a Linux installer. I knew little or nothing about partitioning, but I still wanted to create my own layout, rather than accept whatever the installer created. The installer made the rational assumption that anyone choosing manual partitioning knew what he was doing. So, it presented what was essentially a simple graphical overlay to fdisk (as did the old Anaconda). And, I was flummoxed because I had no real notion of what partitioning is all about. The upside came later, when I was familiar enough with that traditional approach so I could whip through the installer in no time.

    This initial rev of the new Anaconda has abandoned the traditional "graphical overlay of fdisk" approach to manual partitioning and introduced an approach that will be unfamiliar to everyone, neophyte or the experienced. Hence, the frustration of many who find themselves trying to shoehorn the traditional approach into the new Anaconda. I'm not in a position to say if the new approach works for neophytes. (I do think people who write installers should assume that users have at least some knowledge of partitioning when they opt for manual partitioning. There's is only so much magic that software can do.)
    Well, you're not on the wrong lines there, but it's a bigger problem space than you've possibly realized - and it's getting bigger. There are multiple use cases for custom partitioning, in newUI - it's not just for 'tweak every little thing', it's also intended to work for, say, 'I want to control how big the volumes are, but I don't necessarily know how to create an entire Linux partition layout from scratch'. The other major thing that I think a lot of people are missing is that 'some knowledge of partitioning' is becoming a slipperier and slipperier concept. I'm pretty sure either btrfs or something like it is going to Win at some point, and knowing how to drive btrfs is actually a rather different concept from knowing how to throw a bunch of ext4 partitions on a disk and set mount points for them. edit: and then there's fun like EFI system partitions and BIOS boot partitions - do we assume the custom partitioning user knows all about these and how to set them up, or not? Does 'knowledge of partitioning' imply you know when your system needs something like that, and how to set it up? So, I mean, how much knowledge do we assume? How much do we try to provide? How much do we try to handle for you so you don't have to? It's an extremely tricky balancing act. We have in fact considered having *three* partition workflows - the current two, and then a super-hardcore parted frontend-style one for the 'I know everything, get out of my way!' crowd. But that has considerable problems of its own (mainly how to present it, but also maintaining *three* codepaths isn't a whole lot of fun).

    Thanks again for the thoughts!
    Last edited by AdamW; 31st January 2013 at 02:09 AM.
    Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Just for the anecdote - someone on the Distrowatch Weekly comment thread told me to take a look at the SolusOS installer, because it's nice and simple and easy and why can't Fedora work like that?

    Well, I took a look at it. Turns out it's the Mint installer. And yeah, it's pretty simple, because it's limited: for partitioning, it gives you a basic GTK table view of existing partitions and lets you assign mount points and decide whether to format them. It does not understand LVs (or, I'm guessing, btrfs subvols). I dunno if it picks up software RAID devices, but I should check, for giggles. If you want to actually edit partitions, it simply gives you a button that runs gparted. Which is a pretty thin GUI wrapper around parted: it can create raw partitions, and destroy them, and set their types, and...that's pretty much it.

    So I mean...sure, that's kind of simple. And it's 'easy' for a fairly specific user profile - you either created your partitions beforehand, or you're happy using gparted. And you don't want to use LVM, or btrfs, or (probably) software RAID. Or probably any advanced storage stuff, like SAN or FCoE or iSCSI.

    But it's not much cop for, well, pretty much anyone else. And that's kind of important. It's (relatively) easy to achieve simplicity if you keep your functionality intentionally restricted, which is what that installer does. And in a way, that's fine - so long as the functionality you cover is the functionality your users want. But it's really no kind of model for Fedora, because we really need to cover way more use cases with way more functionality than that design handles. Our UI design becomes much more problematic because we're trying to expose a pretty massive range of functionality in a way which doesn't completely nerf more simple use cases. It's inherently a much harder problem, and looking at how someone else solves a _much simpler_ problem doesn't help us much, because you just couldn't apply the Solus / Mint design to the range of functionality anaconda offers.

    I think that's one factor that maybe people aren't considering sufficiently in considering the newUI design: if you approach it from the angle 'well, I'm familiar with this particular style of partitioning using this particular set of storage features', you can miss the fact that the design has to cope with what you're familiar with _but also with a whole bunch of other use cases_. Which makes it that much harder to get right, or at least right enough, for everyone...
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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    On 'eject at the end of install' - I re-opened https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=810553 , with some additional testing and notes.
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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Thanks, Adam! Appreciate the detailed reply. Comments follow:

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    Depends what you mean by 'should', I guess. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it a bug that you don't? Not really - it's not like there's something prettier to show but there's a bug preventing it from working, we just haven't written any kind of code to show anything prettier. I don't think this is new with newUI - if you go check an F17 image, I'm pretty sure it's the same. We probably should be able to hook up plymouth to show something pretty here and hide the ugly messages, but we've just not gotten around to it yet.
    OK, I thought it might be something going on with my seemingly problematic Nvidia card getting in the way.


    Already being worked on - how does http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Proje...tonspokes1.png look to you? How about http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Proje...tonspokes2.png ? I think our consensus was in favour of buttonspokes2. edit: gah, looks like those links are down - but basically, they turn the spokes into big buttons. buttonspokes2 made the effect somewhat more subtle than buttonspokes1. Anyway - we're on it.
    I backed off a directory or two and and could sneak in to see the PNG's. I like spokes2, as well. I wonder if some language on each button that doesn't have an exclamation point might drive home the point that the displayed selection is not fixed, but can be changed? Maybe a formulation like "Choose Software Selection..... ( I didn't realize they were clickable when I first tried it during the alphas, so maybe I'm fixating on this.)

    So there's two points there: one, /dev node name just isn't a very reliable way of referring to disks (it can change between distros, between kernels, or even between boots of the same kernel if you have a particularly crappy firmware, or you plugged in a USB stick, or changed your disk order in the firmware config). Two, this screen is being shown to all users (not just expert ones) and a lot of people are just not going to have any idea what that means. I think we were talking about making other identifying information more prominent in a case where you have multiple similar or identical disks, though. "There is no indication that you need to click the disk icons for use in partitioning." - already being worked on, we are adding a line of text to this page which reads "Select the device(s) you'd lke to install to. They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's "Begin Installation" button."
    Yep. On my hardware, CentOS starts with sdb. There is no sda. I recall one distribution that decided the USB stick holding the install image was the intended boot drive.

    Well, the thing is, setting a mount point isn't the only thing you might want to do after selecting an existing partition. You might instead be selecting it just to delete it - in which case your next port of call would be the - button at the bottom of the left hand pane, not the right hand pane.

    But! The text at the top left of the screen when you first enter custom partitioning has been tweaked. It now looks like http://www.happyassassin.net/extras/bulletpoints.png . There's some visual issues there, but we'll probably be able to tweak those out - but at least now the text provides instructions on assigning mount points to existing partitions.
    That looks very nice. (Noticed it's from Rawhide. I'm debating jumping in.)

    I think back in the day it used to be ejected automatically. I wonder what happened there. I'll have a quick look at it.
    That's what I thought, too.

    Well, you're not on the wrong lines there, but it's a bigger problem space than you've possibly realized - and it's getting bigger. There are multiple use cases for custom partitioning, in newUI - it's not just for 'tweak every little thing', it's also intended to work for, say, 'I want to control how big the volumes are, but I don't necessarily know how to create an entire Linux partition layout from scratch'. The other major thing that I think a lot of people are missing is that 'some knowledge of partitioning' is becoming a slipperier and slipperier concept. I'm pretty sure either btrfs or something like it is going to Win at some point, and knowing how to drive btrfs is actually a rather different concept from knowing how to throw a bunch of ext4 partitions on a disk and set mount points for them. edit: and then there's fun like EFI system partitions and BIOS boot partitions - do we assume the custom partitioning user knows all about these and how to set them up, or not? Does 'knowledge of partitioning' imply you know when your system needs something like that, and how to set it up? So, I mean, how much knowledge do we assume? How much do we try to provide? How much do we try to handle for you so you don't have to? It's an extremely tricky balancing act. We have in fact considered having *three* partition workflows - the current two, and then a super-hardcore parted frontend-style one for the 'I know everything, get out of my way!' crowd. But that has considerable problems of its own (mainly how to present it, but also maintaining *three* codepaths isn't a whole lot of fun).

    Thanks again for the thoughts!

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    I think that's one factor that maybe people aren't considering sufficiently in considering the newUI design: if you approach it from the angle 'well, I'm familiar with this particular style of partitioning using this particular set of storage features', you can miss the fact that the design has to cope with what you're familiar with _but also with a whole bunch of other use cases_. Which makes it that much harder to get right, or at least right enough, for everyone...
    I totally agree! As someone who has been trying out anaconda since pre-alpha (some alpha tc) on both VMs and bare metal, I have consistently seen improvement all along the way. Of course, there are still bugs that need to be squashed but I am sure you guys are on that path already!

    P.S. Did not mean to derail the thread ... how can I test new(er) anaconda from rawhide?

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    Just for the anecdote - someone on the Distrowatch Weekly comment thread told me to take a look at the SolusOS installer, because it's nice and simple and easy and why can't Fedora work like that?

    Well, I took a look at it. Turns out it's the Mint installer...
    As far as I know, the Mint installer is a reskinned/reworked Ubuntu installer. As I recall, the installer in Ubuntu 12.04 was broken re: software raid. At least, I couldn't get it to work. Dunno about 12.10.

    Now, if I was installing SolusOS or Mint or Ubuntu, I'd just jump to the gparted bit and get on with it. But, as you suggest, it does what it does and it doesn't do what it doesn't do.

    A lot, obviously, depends on your target audiences. If you're going for new Linux converts, if you are actively designing your product to encourage people to leave Windows and want to make the transition as pain free as possible, then I think you get to the Ubuntu/Mint approach. You make certain assumptions. Basically, their default assumption is that they're installing on a machine with one drive and the user does not care how the partition(s) lay out. That's certainly going to be the case for many people moving over from Windows. Fedora, though, has a bigger problem set, as you say.

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    Quote Originally Posted by nonamedotc
    I totally agree! As someone who has been trying out anaconda since pre-alpha (some alpha tc) on both VMs and bare metal, I have consistently seen improvement all along the way. Of course, there are still bugs that need to be squashed but I am sure you guys are on that path already!

    P.S. Did not mean to derail the thread ... how can I test new(er) anaconda from rawhide?
    Well, this is the image I'm using: http://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/...130128/Fedora/

    It won't boot unless you pass updates=http://bcl.fedorapeople.org/updates/vt7.img

    I'm going to trust that you can fill in all the hideous warnings about what a completely and utterly untested Rawhide install ISO could possibly do to your puppies and children

    BTW, we're planning to do an anaconda build every Friday and then try and do a boot.iso compose with that anaconda. if the compose fails, oh well, too bad. If the composed image doesn't work at all, oh well, too bad. But at least there'll be the chance you get something pokeable.

    There's a few of the post-18 UI improvements already visible in that image, but still a lot more to come - we spent a lot of time today discussing how to make the 'Installation Options' page clearer, for instance, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=903501 .
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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    I figured out what the image was from your screenshot but then it did not boot! Then comes your post! Thanks, Adam

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW
    BTW, we're planning to do an anaconda build every Friday and then try and do a boot.iso compose with that anaconda. if the compose fails, oh well, too bad. If the composed image doesn't work at all, oh well, too bad. But at least there'll be the chance you get something pokeable.
    From my point of view, that'll be perfect! I can mess with anaconda over the weekend and file some bug reports if any problems arise.

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    It's that "oh well, too bad" thing that makes me hesitate about Rawhide.

    I've been toying with putting F18 on my Macbook Pro, an early 2011 model, if I can find enough F18-specific handholding guidance. That would free this machine for Rawhide adventures.
    Last edited by joncr; 31st January 2013 at 04:43 AM.

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    Re: A Few Notes on the New Anaconda

    well, the installer is a special case. once you get Rawhide installed, somehow, it usually doesn't bork _too_ badly. it's more 'sometimes there'll be a bad GTK and then you won't be able to get GNOME to run' than 'eats all your data every wednesday'. No guarantees, but I think it's been a while since we had a rawhide bug that actually endangered data.
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